Comments on: MMP in Ontario: Vote the way academics tell you to http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/ Conservative group weblog that publishes daily commentary on political events and topics affecting Canada, the United States and the world. Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:41:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Adam http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-178348 Adam Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:52:26 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-178348 I know this post was months ago but I thought I'd add somehting , maybe someone might read it. To answer the questions stated above: To me democracy is direct representation of citizens through there elected representatives. With strict lobbying laws to prevent the Plutocracy (aka corprotocracy) we currently see in the US and Canada (transitioning) and historically in Asian, Russia, Itali and in Pinochets Chili. A system strong in free market and weak on civil and political rights. In a plutocracy the state determines which organizations will be recognized as legitimate and partners with them on policy and regulation, thus avoiding public input on important issues. Now how does this apply to the Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) system debate. The proposed MMP in Ontario sought to increase the district boundaries to reduce the number of districts and elected representatives in the house of commons. It then sought to increase the number of unelected or party appointed seats in the house of commons. Thus increasing the ratio of unelected to elected representatives. This further distances the people from the House of Commons by limiting its representative voice. We can also see, with the increase in appointed seat, an increase in control over the house by the party system. As independent representatives, individually are not counted in the proportional part and therefore see a decrease in there ability to represent there constituents due to an increase in the number of seat of all other parties. This also excludes small and/or regional parties. So as far as I can see, MMP would move us further from Democracy and closer to a Plutocracy. If I lived in Ontario I would have voted no, as I encouraged all my Ontario friends and family to do. Another word of note, notice there were only 2 options on the ballot. The current system or a worse system. They again limited the choices so that if a yes vote came they got the result they wanted and if a no vote came they were no worse off then they started. This would also legitimize the current system, and push off further discussion of political reform for a few years. I know this post was months ago but I thought I’d add somehting , maybe someone might read it.

To answer the questions stated above:

To me democracy is direct representation of citizens through there elected representatives. With strict lobbying laws to prevent the Plutocracy (aka corprotocracy) we currently see in the US and Canada (transitioning) and historically in Asian, Russia, Itali and in Pinochets Chili. A system strong in free market and weak on civil and political rights. In a plutocracy
the state determines which organizations will be recognized as legitimate and partners with them on policy and regulation, thus avoiding public input on important issues.

Now how does this apply to the Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) system debate. The proposed MMP in Ontario sought to increase the district boundaries to reduce the number of districts and elected representatives in the house of commons. It then sought to increase the number of unelected or party appointed seats in the house of commons. Thus increasing the ratio of unelected to elected representatives. This further distances the people from the House of Commons by limiting its representative voice. We can also see, with the increase in appointed seat, an increase in control over the house by the party system. As independent representatives, individually are not counted in the proportional part and therefore see a decrease in there ability to represent there constituents due to an increase in the number of seat of all other parties. This also excludes small and/or regional parties.

So as far as I can see, MMP would move us further from Democracy and closer to a Plutocracy.

If I lived in Ontario I would have voted no, as I encouraged all my Ontario friends and family to do.

Another word of note, notice there were only 2 options on the ballot. The current system or a worse system. They again limited the choices so that if a yes vote came they got the result they wanted and if a no vote came they were no worse off then they started. This would also legitimize the current system, and push off further discussion of political reform for a few years.

]]> By: Aaron Unruh http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169772 Aaron Unruh Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:23:36 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169772 Oh man, now even the help desk guy is lecturing me on the mechanics of electoral systems. Oh man, now even the help desk guy is lecturing me on the mechanics of electoral systems.

]]> By: Linuxluver http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169771 Linuxluver Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:12:01 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169771 Yeah....Be guided by your ignorance and / or prejudices. Who cares what the facts are? Vote no. Yeah….Be guided by your ignorance and / or prejudices. Who cares what the facts are?

Vote no.

]]> By: Sick of Tory Ranting http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169709 Sick of Tory Ranting Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:49:14 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169709 Thanks. I do share a bit of your skepticism about Citizens Assemblies, though, so I think your broader point is well taken. Thanks. I do share a bit of your skepticism about Citizens Assemblies, though, so I think your broader point is well taken.

]]> By: Aaron Unruh http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169707 Aaron Unruh Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:12:57 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169707 "Actually, Aaron, political scientists looked in shock (and some dismay) at the BC Citizens Assembly decision to endorse the single transferable vote. Overall, MMP is a favorite for many political scientists, so the BC Assembly’s decision was surprising." Good point. “Actually, Aaron, political scientists looked in shock (and some dismay) at the BC Citizens Assembly decision to endorse the single transferable vote. Overall, MMP is a favorite for many political scientists, so the BC Assembly’s decision was surprising.”

Good point.

]]> By: Ryan http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169705 Ryan Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:57:46 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169705 "MMP is anything but “real democracy”. Vote “no”." Why is that? Further, what does a "real democracy" look like in your view? “MMP is anything but “real democracy”. Vote “no”.”

Why is that? Further, what does a “real democracy” look like in your view?

]]> By: ruralrenegade http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169702 ruralrenegade Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:05:42 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169702 MMP is anything but "real democracy". Vote "no". MMP is anything but “real democracy”. Vote “no”.

]]> By: Abattoir http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169701 Abattoir Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:59:58 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169701 What logic brought you to that conclusion, Aaron? People who study and advance political science for a living think it's a good idea - therefore it's a bad idea. Kind of like your mechanic telling you your sparkplugs should be replaced, therefore you obviously shouldn't. Not that I'm advocating that anyone simply take the word of the academics at face value - their credentials should give their opinions more weight than that of Joe Everyman, but everyone needs to make up their own mind. I'm definitely in favour of MMP - but I'm OK that it won't pass. Real democracy means sometimes you don't get what you want. What logic brought you to that conclusion, Aaron? People who study and advance political science for a living think it’s a good idea – therefore it’s a bad idea.

Kind of like your mechanic telling you your sparkplugs should be replaced, therefore you obviously shouldn’t.

Not that I’m advocating that anyone simply take the word of the academics at face value – their credentials should give their opinions more weight than that of Joe Everyman, but everyone needs to make up their own mind.

I’m definitely in favour of MMP – but I’m OK that it won’t pass. Real democracy means sometimes you don’t get what you want.

]]> By: Sick of Tory Ranting http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169700 Sick of Tory Ranting Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:32:54 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169700 Actually, Aaron, political scientists looked in shock (and some dismay) at the BC Citizens Assembly decision to endorse the single transferable vote. Overall, MMP is a favorite for many political scientists, so the BC Assembly's decision was surprising. It's a bit simplistic to say that these things are stage-managed. And, is it so hard to believe that if people have the time to take a good hard look at things and see the alternatives, they might actually decide on their own that MMP is better? Actually, Aaron, political scientists looked in shock (and some dismay) at the BC Citizens Assembly decision to endorse the single transferable vote. Overall, MMP is a favorite for many political scientists, so the BC Assembly’s decision was surprising. It’s a bit simplistic to say that these things are stage-managed. And, is it so hard to believe that if people have the time to take a good hard look at things and see the alternatives, they might actually decide on their own that MMP is better?

]]> By: Ryan http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169699 Ryan Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:21:10 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169699 Geez Wayne, what's with the two identical posts of lists? Shouldn't your first post have names of scholars and the second post just list Universities so that I can choose which scholar and institution I choose to support? Geez Wayne, what’s with the two identical posts of lists? Shouldn’t your first post have names of scholars and the second post just list Universities so that I can choose which scholar and institution I choose to support?

]]> By: Wayne Smith http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169697 Wayne Smith Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:10:34 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169697 So, it's a BAD thing that 152 political scientists have endorsed the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform? Brock University: Larry Savage Juris Dreifelds Timothy Heinmiller Garth Stevenson Carol Baar Carleton University: Rianne Mahon Jill Vickers Radha Jhappan Peter Andree Randall Germain Jon Pammett James Meadowcroft Pauline Rankin Bill Cross Katherine Graham Rand Dyck Laura Macdonald Frances Abele University of Guelph: Byron Sheldrick Patrick Boyer Judith McKenzie Candace Johnson John Hiemstra, King's University College Stephen Phillips, Langara College (past Prez. BC Poli Sci Assoc) John Peters, Laurentian Max Nemni, Laval Vincent Lemieux, Laval McMaster University: Don Wells William D.Coleman Robert O'Brien Stefania Szlek Miller Karen Bird Peter Graefe Lana Wylie Greg McElligott Peter Nyers Wayne Lewchuk Michael Stein (Emeritus) Queens University: Janet Hiebert Grant Amyot Tom Kent Hugh Thorburn John Meisel Abigail Bakan Andrew Lister Eleanor MacDonald Keith Banting Alan Whitehorn Susanne Soederberg David Koyzis, Redeemer University College Christian Leuprecht, Royal Military College of Canada Ryerson University: Neil Thomlinson John Shields Bryan Evans Mike Burke Tuna Baskoy Colin Moores Carla Cassidy Grace-Edward Galabuzi Aparna Sundar C. Camcastle, Simon Fraser Trent University: Robert Paehlke Feyzi Baban Christy Gombay Gavin Fridell Nadine Changfoot Doug Torgerson Elaine Stavro Jim Driscoll University of Ottawa: Serge Denis Caroline Andrew Stephen Brown Nathalie Des Rosiers John Trent David Cashaback Michael Orsini Marie-Josie Massicotte Dimitrios Karmis Kathryn Trevenen Matthew Paterson Martin Papillon Claude Denis Luc Julliet Linda Cardinal University of Toronto: Joseph H. Carens Edward Andrew Sylvia Bakshevkin Sylvia Ostry Meyer Brownstone Ursula Franklin Lawrence LeDuc Peter Russell Lorne Sossin Melissa Williams Thomas Homer Dixon David Rayside Graham White Simone Chambers University of Victoria: Norman Ruff Scott Watson Dennis Pilon University of Western Ontario: Elizabeth Riddell Jacquetta Newman Caroline Dick Peter Langille Andrew Sancton Paul Nesbitt-Larking Neil Bradford Henry Milner, Vanier College Gerard Boychuk, Waterloo Wilfrid Laurier University: Barry Kay, Brian Tanguay David Docherty Loren King University of Windsor: Timothy Donais Heather MacIvor York University: Bruce Smardon Greg Albo David P. Shugarman Judy Hellman Esteve Morera Martin Thomas Stephanie Ross Robert R. Albritton George C. Comnimel Fred Fletcher S. Ronald Ellis, Q.C Robert MacDermid Dennis Raphael Nicola Short Scott Forsyth Robert Drummond Ann Porter Gerald Kernerman Carolyn Bassett Steve Hellman Leah Vosko Barbara Cameron Ray Bazowski Asher Horowitz Roger Keil Leo Panitch Richard Saunders John Saul Roddy Loeppky Fred Fletcher Daniel Drache James Laxer Terry Maley David McNally Willem Maas So, it’s a BAD thing that 152 political scientists have endorsed the recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly on Electoral Reform?

Brock University:

Larry Savage
Juris Dreifelds
Timothy Heinmiller
Garth Stevenson
Carol Baar

Carleton University:

Rianne Mahon
Jill Vickers
Radha Jhappan
Peter Andree
Randall Germain
Jon Pammett
James Meadowcroft
Pauline Rankin
Bill Cross
Katherine Graham
Rand Dyck
Laura Macdonald
Frances Abele

University of Guelph:

Byron Sheldrick
Patrick Boyer
Judith McKenzie
Candace Johnson

John Hiemstra, King’s University College
Stephen Phillips, Langara College (past Prez. BC Poli Sci Assoc)
John Peters, Laurentian
Max Nemni, Laval
Vincent Lemieux, Laval

McMaster University:

Don Wells
William D.Coleman
Robert O’Brien
Stefania Szlek Miller
Karen Bird
Peter Graefe
Lana Wylie
Greg McElligott
Peter Nyers
Wayne Lewchuk

Michael Stein (Emeritus)

Queens University:

Janet Hiebert
Grant Amyot
Tom Kent
Hugh Thorburn
John Meisel
Abigail Bakan
Andrew Lister
Eleanor MacDonald
Keith Banting
Alan Whitehorn
Susanne Soederberg

David Koyzis, Redeemer University College
Christian Leuprecht, Royal Military College of Canada

Ryerson University:

Neil Thomlinson
John Shields
Bryan Evans
Mike Burke
Tuna Baskoy
Colin Moores
Carla Cassidy
Grace-Edward Galabuzi
Aparna Sundar

C. Camcastle, Simon Fraser

Trent University:

Robert Paehlke
Feyzi Baban
Christy Gombay
Gavin Fridell
Nadine Changfoot
Doug Torgerson
Elaine Stavro
Jim Driscoll

University of Ottawa:

Serge Denis
Caroline Andrew
Stephen Brown
Nathalie Des Rosiers
John Trent
David Cashaback
Michael Orsini
Marie-Josie Massicotte
Dimitrios Karmis
Kathryn Trevenen
Matthew Paterson
Martin Papillon
Claude Denis
Luc Julliet
Linda Cardinal

University of Toronto:

Joseph H. Carens
Edward Andrew
Sylvia Bakshevkin
Sylvia Ostry
Meyer Brownstone
Ursula Franklin
Lawrence LeDuc
Peter Russell
Lorne Sossin
Melissa Williams
Thomas Homer Dixon
David Rayside
Graham White
Simone Chambers

University of Victoria:

Norman Ruff
Scott Watson
Dennis Pilon

University of Western Ontario:

Elizabeth Riddell
Jacquetta Newman
Caroline Dick
Peter Langille
Andrew Sancton
Paul Nesbitt-Larking
Neil Bradford

Henry Milner, Vanier College
Gerard Boychuk, Waterloo

Wilfrid Laurier University:

Barry Kay,
Brian Tanguay
David Docherty
Loren King

University of Windsor:

Timothy Donais
Heather MacIvor

York University:

Bruce Smardon
Greg Albo
David P. Shugarman
Judy Hellman
Esteve Morera
Martin Thomas
Stephanie Ross
Robert R. Albritton
George C. Comnimel
Fred Fletcher
S. Ronald Ellis, Q.C
Robert MacDermid
Dennis Raphael
Nicola Short
Scott Forsyth
Robert Drummond
Ann Porter
Gerald Kernerman
Carolyn Bassett
Steve Hellman
Leah Vosko
Barbara Cameron
Ray Bazowski
Asher Horowitz
Roger Keil
Leo Panitch
Richard Saunders
John Saul
Roddy Loeppky
Fred Fletcher
Daniel Drache
James Laxer
Terry Maley
David McNally
Willem Maas

]]> By: Online Pioneer Plus | E-journalism at its best! http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169690 Online Pioneer Plus | E-journalism at its best! Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2007/10/09/mmp-in-ontario-vote-the-way-academics-tell-you-to/#comment-169690 <!--%kramer-pre%-->MMP in <b>Ontario</b>: Vote the way academics tell you to<b>Ontario</b> election and referendum on MMP <b>Ontario's</b> big decision Top Links EDITORIAL: say yes to MMP<!--%kramer-post%--> MMP in <b>Ontario</b>: Vote the way academics tell you to<b>Ontario</b> election and referendum on MMP <b>Ontario&#39;s</b> big decision Top Links EDITORIAL: say yes to MMP

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