* Publicly-funded religious schools would be allowed to teach creationism and other theories, says Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory. Speaking to reporters at the a Jewish day school in Thornhill, Ont., on Wednesday, Mr. Tory defended his plan to bring Jewish, Islamic and other religious schools into the public education system.“They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs,†Mr. Tory said at the Kamin Education Centre.
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Raphael Alexander wrote:
Yeah, it’s almost kind of a nightmare. I think Tory would have a slam dunk majority if he’d drop faith-based like a hot potato. But he won’t. And we’ll get four more years of Dalton.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 4:02 pm | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
Well, you certainly bought the G&M’s spin hook-line-and-sinker. What you probably don’t realize is that the religious schools that are already out there already teach creationism. So, whether the Ontario govt. funds religious schools or not, it won’t change whether Creationism is taught in school.
HOWEVER…
In order for those schools to qualify for funding, they would have to follow the Ontario curriculum… which includes the theory of Evolution. Thus, what John Tory really has done there is not introduce Creationism into any schools, but rather he has introduced Evolution into schools that only teach Creationism.
Quite a different way of looking at it, don’t you think? Almost 180 degrees different when you really think about it.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 4:11 pm | Permalink
Lore_Weaver wrote:
The problem is that John Tory wants to teach ID ALONGSIDE Evolution. It’s the ALONGSIDE part that I have a problem with.
Teach ID all you want in a religious studies class. Science classes should only have science taught in them, and that, by definition, removes ID from the curriculum.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 4:16 pm | Permalink
OMMAG wrote:
ID is neither Science OR Religion!
And JT has confirmed my suspicions about his abilities.
Too bad for the people of Ontario!
Really! It’s a shame……..
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 5:07 pm | Permalink
aek wrote:
What Surecure wrote makes sense, but many people don’t read far past the headline. Even if they do, their impressions are anchoured by it.
The GM’s eye-catching national lead headline is:
“Creationism raised as Ont. election”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/national/
This begs the question: Is Warren Kinsella a G&M headline adviser, or did they spin this all on their own?
The long term ramifications of the FBS policy were not well thought out. It is a contentious issue that is difficult to manage, and a money pit that will only get deeper as Ontario’s religious diversity and ethnic population grow to greater proportions, especially in our large cities.
Tory’s FBS policy is already becoming a major issue even before the writ is dropped, and
now we’re even seeing flank attacks such as the referenced article.
FBS is definitely detracting from what the election should be about: McGuinty’s lies and lousy record.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 5:19 pm | Permalink
Hillary wrote:
This is suppost to be a diverse country and we live in the most diverse province. Conjoining all of the private schools and seperate school boards is only logic. Yes this is a free country and you should be able to talk and teach your languages and religions but I believe fact is fact and kids should be taught that in one school, under one circulum. I’m sure that relgious places of worship can teach the rest. There is no need for seperate schooling. It’s a waste of taxpayers money and only teaches children the differences of one another while they should be focusing on the similarities in a whole diverse school.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 5:23 pm | Permalink
Kevin wrote:
Why should religion be the only criteria? As long as we are looking at public funding for private schools than why not all black schools, all white schools, or short fat people schools. As soon as you extend the public funding to the religious schools there will be a whole new group of people looking at getting their schools funded as well. Look for court challenges after all it is not fair to fund one and not the others.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 6:35 pm | Permalink
Joel wrote:
Surecure:
My point was: Tory had previously said that publicly funded faith-based schools would have to follow the public curriculum, which was a mitigating factor. But if “following the public curriculum” will be interpreted so loosely as to allow the teaching of creationism then this policy is a whole lot worse than I thought.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 7:03 pm | Permalink
Joanne (TB) wrote:
That sucking sound is the Tory campaign going down the drain.
Depressing.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 7:57 pm | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
Joel: I’m not sure if you’re getting what it is I wrote.
Presently, some faith based schools teach creationism already but do not teach evolution. That is the present status quo, and that would not change even if we got rid of the Seperate School board.
Under Tory’s plan, in order for a faith-based school to receive funding, they must follow the present curriculum. Emphasis on the word “present”. That means that those schools that teach Creationism now (but not Evolution) would have to teach Evolution.
In other words, the number of schools teaching ONLY Creationism drops to zero.
Do you get it now?
It’s not about “allowing”. Faith based schools presently do not have to worry about being “allowed” to do anything. They can teach whatever they want, including Creationism-only science. Tory’s plan is the only plan that would eliminate Creationism-only teaching in Ontario.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 9:26 pm | Permalink
aek wrote:
Surecure makes a good point that the G&M’s story was obviously spun to mislead on John Tory’s recent statements.
The implied message, an obvious recycle from Warren Kinsella’s historic attack on Stockwell Day, is that John Tory is a knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, unsophisticated imbecile in disguise.
Just consider their headline, which most people might scan without reading the full article, and which subliminally anchors their perception:
“Creationism raised as Ont. election issueâ€
What I wonder is whether Warren Kinsella is actually writing the G&M headlines, or just consulting for them? In either case, I’ll bet he was partying hard tonight.
However, regardless of this biased flank attack, John Tory’s FBS policy is not well thought our regarding its long term implications. If John Tory’s policy to publicly fund schools for every religion becomes law, expect its management, legal battles and government costs to spiral as these segments grow more than proportionately compared with the general population for Ontario, as predicted by Statistics Canada’s demographic predictions.
The short term benefit that John Tory’s policy is probably seeking while posturing from a “politically correct†position, is to garner more ethnic votes in Ontario’s major cities, in particular, the GTA.
But, what is the long term benefit for Ontario by funding this ever-increasing potpourri of religious schools? How will the Ontario government ensure that extremism, a potential detriment to our free and democratic Western society, is not disseminated as part of the “non-core†schooling, even if only lectured ad hoc by guest “teachers�
Putting aside the dubious benefits of his policy, even John Tory’s obvious short term goal seems to backfiring. Before the election has even been officially called, the PCs are on the defensive, detracting from what should be their main campaign issue: McGuinty’s lies and lousy government.
McGuinty is now on the offensive and John Tory and his PC party is flailing in deep water. What was John Tory thinking?
Sure, Dalton McGuinty’s statements on the PC policy are hypocritical, but he will not let John Tory off the hook on this an issue.
So, what’s next? John Tory should rethink this policy, jump on damage control, and change the channel.
In the mean time, expect to see Warren Kinsella dust off his dinosaur puppets and his Flintstone’s cartoon political parodies.
Posted on 05-Sep-07 at 11:18 pm | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
Can’t say I didn’t tell you so:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....ional/home
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 5:12 am | Permalink
Joel wrote:
I get your point Surecure, I just disagree. Personally, I don’t care what gets taught in privately funded schools. If they want to have science classes where they claim dinosaurs and humans roamed the earth together, I don’t care. It’s the parents’ money, the parents’ choice.
I do care about what gets taught in publicly funded schools. And John Tory’s plan will increase the number of publicly funded schools in which creationism is taught. That’s taxpayers’ money going toward the teaching of a scientific untruth. Not acceptable.
Do you get it?
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 6:07 am | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
I’m not sure you do get my point if you’re writing, “If they want to have science classes where they claim dinosaurs and humans roamed the earth…”
John Tory has been clear on this point. Science under the Ontario curriculum teaches Evolution, not Creationism. Creationism is a religious studies issue, not a science issue. And in order for faith-based schools to qualify for public funding, they have to adopt the Ontario curriculum… which means Evolution.
So, your worries about ’science’ classes teaching Creationism and your concerns over “money going toward the teaching of a scientific untruth” makes no sense since it won’t be science class issue. And as I’ve pointed out, conversely, Tory’s plan would finally force schools that do not teach Evolution (only Creationism) to do so.
For somebody worried about “scientific untruth”, I’m a little confused over how you cannot see that last aspect as a good thing.
Besides which, how many schools are we talking about here? Most faith-based schools do not teach Creationism or intelligent design or whatever you want to call it. Are we to throw the baby out with the bath-water based on a minority position?
This is why I don’t get the reaction from people who think this is going to be some cataclysmic event in the education system. I’d believe these claims if we saw it happening in the provinces where this is already the norm.
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 7:47 am | Permalink
slamdance wrote:
Joel:
The catholics are already using taxpayer dollars to teach creationism.
Do you want to start a campaign to end catholic school funding?
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 7:47 am | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
BTW… when I said “Most faith-based schools do not teach Creationism”, I was referring to ones not already publicly funded like the Separate School board.
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 7:50 am | Permalink
Canadian Cynic: Creationism: Even the Blogging Tories have their limits. wrote:
[…] Tory Just Committed Political SuicideThe Atheist Conservative:Tory promotes ID in Science classThe He-Man Woman Hater’s Club:China or Bust!: John Tory keeps diggingMatthew Siscoe:The Day John Tory lost the electionBC […]
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 8:57 am | Permalink
Abattoir wrote:
Slamdance:
I went to Catholic separate schools in both elementary school and high school (graduated in the 90’s) and I was NEVER taught Creationism. In fact, my Grade 10 Religion class (required course) explicitly taught about interpreting the Bible in context, not literally.
My biology and science classes were based on the assumption that evolution was the prevailing theory. Creationism, ID, and doubts about evolution never even entered the curriculum. In other classes, we discussed possible real-world origins for creation myths, including comparisons with the Bible’s creation story with other religions.
I’m afraid your generalization of Catholic school curriculum is simply an unfair comparison with privately funded faith-based schools.
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 8:59 am | Permalink
Christian Conservative: The Favorite Dish of Tories... our own wrote:
[…] Favorite Dish of Tories… our own Here we are, once again, out in full view of everyone, eating our own. Seems to be the favorite dish of […]
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 12:56 pm | Permalink
Joel wrote:
slamdance: Yes, I do want to end Catholic school funding. That’s why I’ll vote Green, or cast a write-in ballot.
Surecure: To be clear, what I mean by “If they want to have science classes where they claim dinosaurs and humans roamed the earth” is, “If they want to teach that dinosaurs and humans roamed the Earth at the same time, EVEN in a science class.” In other words, if it’s a private school I don’t care WHAT gets taught, in any class.
In a publicly funded school, however, I don’t think creationism has any place in any classroom, whether it’s a science class or a “religion” class.
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 3:15 pm | Permalink
A Step To The Right wrote:
these are the schools that should be of concern to you. Yesterday when John Tory announced that he would be open to funding schools that taught creationism in religion class alongside the provincially mandated theory of evolution, some Blogging Toriesthrewvery public cyber fits. Well, I’ve got news for all you. In publicly funded Catholic schools, the theory of evolution is already taught in science class alongside creationism in religion class. If you could vote for the PC Party in previous years
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 5:12 pm | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
“In other words, if it’s a private school I don’t care WHAT gets taught, in any class.”
You’re fine with the status quo of recognizing academic credentials from private institutions, regardless of whether that institution’s teachings match the quality of the Ontario curriculum?
Then, I guess I can understand your position.
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 8:15 pm | Permalink
Joel wrote:
“You’re fine with the status quo of recognizing academic credentials from private institutions, regardless of whether that institution’s teachings match the quality of the Ontario curriculum?”
Separate question. That’s something to be determined by the market when it comes to employers evaluating private school credentials, and to be determined by admissions personnel when it comes to how those credentials are treated by universities.
But I don’t care. Meaning I won’t interfere and I don’t think the state has any business interfering.
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 9:09 pm | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
Employers? Don’t you mean Universities?
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 9:27 pm | Permalink
Joel wrote:
No. I mean if someone graduates from a private high school, and goes to get a job, it’s up to the employers as to how they want to treat the private high school diploma. Just like it’s up to the university to decide how to treat applicants with private high school diplomas. But it’s not my business, and it’s not the state’s* business.
Thus, why I say: “I don’t care.”
*I realize universities are state agents, but I’m fine with public universities *recognizing* the credentials of someone from a creationism-teaching high school, I only care that taxpayers’ money didn’t go toward that school.
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 9:41 pm | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
Are you actually suggesting that employers look at the name of the person’s high school and take a second to wonder whether or not that high school taught something worthwhile?
I guess it would probably be a whole lot easier if we just adopted an all or nothing point of view… and accept the long held belief (by many people) that education should not be funded with tax dollars to begin with. You have a kid? You pay for their school.
After all, John Tory’s plan is the only thing in a non-competitive education system (like the one we have now) that would influence faith-based schools to match the curriculum of the public and Seperate school boards… not to mention the only thing that would force faith-based Creationism-only teaching schools to teach Evolution.
It amazes me. It is the Evolution proponents that are scared by Tory’s plan when it is the Creationist proponents who should be. After all, Creationists only thrive because the people they teach are denied knowledge of Evolution. And under Tory’s plan, they wouldn’t be able to do that anymore.
The irony…
Posted on 06-Sep-07 at 9:54 pm | Permalink
Charles Anthony wrote:
“and accept the long held belief (by many people) that education should not be funded with tax dollars to begin with. You have a kid? You pay for their school.”
Amen.
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I actually hope that Tory And The Tories do not get elected. I can not imagine any thing more horrifying than every single “faith” deserving public funding. What could be a bigger boondoggle than that?? We should be demanding cuts in government expenses!
Who the Hell would decide whether a “faith” is legitimate or not?!? Maybe I should start up my own church!
Posted on 10-Sep-07 at 7:09 am | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
Well, I don’t see how this could be a financial boondoggle. After all, the plan is for funding existing schools that qualify, not actually build schools for faith-based organizations. And the province spends or increases money for education based on the number of students/expected number of students, so it’s not like they will be paying more money. The money will just go to do a different place.
Still… when it comes to cuts in government expenses, I’m still a hell of a lot more afraid of McGuinty or Hampton than Tory. After all, Ontario has a surplus the size of the revenues from the new Health tax and neither of them thinks we should scrap the Health tax. Reminds me of the Federal Liberals promise to remove the excise tax once the Federal deficit was in order. And yet we’re still paying the excise tax.
Posted on 10-Sep-07 at 7:18 am | Permalink
Charles Anthony wrote:
You are mistaken when you suggest that the same money will just go to a different place. The funding formula provides proportionately more funding for students depending on the circumstances. For example, people in smaller communities where members of their “faith” are less common are distinctly offered more funding. Parochial schools in Timbuktu get more per student than parochial schools in metropolitan centers.
“After all, the plan is for funding existing schools that qualify, not actually build schools for faith-based organizations.”
I am pessimistic. I am leery that funding would have to be extended to every “faith” in the future.
Posted on 10-Sep-07 at 10:33 am | Permalink
Surecure wrote:
What I was suggesting is not similarity in dollar figures. I was talking exactly about what you just said in terms of proportionality based on circumstances.
In the end the funding formula, region per region, will still be the same. But, much like a school voucher system might work, the money will be distributed within the region to the schools based on demand just as it is in any other region based on the number of schools.
I am pessimistic. I am leery that funding would have to be extended to every “faith†in the future.
The funding is for “faith based schools” not simply “faiths”. Thus, there would have to be a legitimate, working, brick and mortar school that is already there in order to qualify.
People don’t qualify for tax right-offs for their business if they don’t own a business yet. It would be impossible for a “faith” to make a legitimate claim for funding their school if the school doesn’t even exist.
Posted on 10-Sep-07 at 11:02 am | Permalink