Another Day, Another Billion Dollars for Natives
July 16, 2007 · By Aaron Unruh
leaders of the 16,500 Cree of northern Quebec announced a historic $1.4-billion deal with Ottawa on Monday.
If ratified in a referendum in October and approved by Parliament, it will see them take control of all policing, courts and social and economic development in their communities — and perhaps eventually form their own state within Canada…
Keep in mind that it’s your tax dollars being handed over to allow Cree leaders the opportunity to play “make-believe nation” and “We’re an autonomous state but can we please have another billion dollars ’cause the last billion ran out.”
If I might intrude with a quick note to the readership here:
a) Most of the writers at the Politic have about as much comprehension of the nature of Land Claims, Treaties, and Aboriginal Title as an ant has about a train (e.g., Shane’s last and completely erroneous posting about That’s okay - it’s complicated, and most people don’t. The problem is, they persist in editorializing about it from a position of sullen, uninformed ignorance. Most people who don’t understand an area of law (or physics, or policy, or whatever) have the brains to keep quiet about it in public. I’m not sure why our friends at the Politic take such delight in displaying their ignorance to the world at large, but to each his/her own.
b) The Stageleft crew have offered to explain the legal and constitutional basis of Aboriginal title to our friends here, but oddly, every such offer seems to end the thread. It’s almost as though our friends were more interested in protecting, publishing, and promulgating their ignorance than in actually understanding their own country’s relationship with First Nations.
Well, the offer stands. If you guys would ever like to have a discussion based on legal, constitutional and historical fact rather than juvenile neocon pique, do let us know.
These guys crack me up. Here is the “left-libertarian” blog bowing before the wisdom of the American state.
Your usual substantive contribution, Aaron. Bravo.
You’re welcome. And when you and Stageleft are ready to be educated on what the word “libertarian” means, we here at ThePolitic will be more than happy to take on the responsibility.
Actually, my note was to your readership. You don’t really have anything to say that interests me. Thanks.
800 land claims to be settled at an average of a billion dollars per land claim = $800 billion dollars. Whether you agree or disagree with the process, that is the minimum bill we are looking at. The figure could be as high as $2 trillion, given recent settlement figures.
Our GDP is $1.2 trillion and our federal debt is about $550 billion. The carrying charges on $800 billion in debt would be $45-70 billion annually.
The process is preposterous and Canadian people know it, which explains why the Conservatives have been sailing high at 36-37% in the polls for the last year and a half while the Liberals struggle to break 30%.
An “average” of 1 billion per land claim?
Wow. Interesting number. The most expensive claim in history, for an area the size of three Germanies, was the Nunavut Claim, at 1.4 billion.
Care to back up that ‘average’ assertion with a source?
“You don’t really have anything to say that interests me.”
That’s a shame. When you decide that you want to grow up and be educated, let us know.
Heh. What a stunning riposte.
About a week ago we removed the Stageleft link to the Politic because the level of discussion had declined to the level you illustrate above. It’s a shame. I have a lot of respect for Tom and Greg: unfortunately, you and your cohorts have dragged this site down to the level of a usenet flamewar.
Greg, Tom: serious suggestion here. You guys, collectively, might want to have a chat about where you want this site to go. There really is a need for places where folks can have an intelligent chat, and there have been times in the history of this site where it’s seemed that’s where you want to head.
Whooeee!, all that from a site that attracts the 9/11 conspirators and a doofus who thinks it’s cute to mock (rednecks?). Do that fellar a favor Balbull and tell him that act is waaaay past it’s best before date. Whooeee! anywhoo Balbull, I tend to agree with you (checking my temp.) on signed treaties and land claims. Perhaps more facts with a dollop of grace/style and less Shaidle-type rhetoric wins the day, good luck pal.
Dollar figures from eras in the past don’t apply when estimating the cost of future settlement claims because the cost of settling them has increased so dramatically:
The department has been hampered by the cost of resolving land claims, which have tripled in the last 15 years. It spent $536 million negotiating and implementing land claims during the fiscal year ended in 2005.
Half a billion a year to produce a handful of agreements is the new math, kids. That’s just the overhead.
Actually, when you add up the original Cree agreement, the new agreement, and the sweetheart $2 billion side deal the Cree signed with the Quebec government and you’ll see a few thousand Cree living in the sticks have soaked Canadian taxpayers for nearly $3.5 billion dollars, which pretty much blows our friend babulican’s claims out of the water:
The Cree reached a settlement with Quebec in 2002 in the “Paix des braves” deal. The province agreed to pay the Cree about $70 million per year through 2027. In return, the Cree dropped lawsuits to allow Hydro-Quebec projects to go ahead.
Sources:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north.....laims.html
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/Arti.....b=Politics
You made a specific statement, Maitre…an average cost of one billion per land claim. You’re a liar. Period.
Whoops, I think I see the problem. Ignorance, again.
Maitre, are you under the impression that all the numbers you’re excreting are “land claims”? Oh, dear.
oh well, so much for that idea…
“Greg, Tom: serious suggestion here. You guys, collectively, might want to have a chat about where you want this site to go.”
Why on earth would you care where their site goes?
It is obvious you vigorously disagree with their overall political leanings (fair enough).
But it is very unlikely anything you say will sway anyone here over to your side of the political spectrum so, really, why do you make such a fuss?
The Nisg’aa treaty easily adds up to over a billion dollars as the link below demonstrates:
http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/pr/info/nit_e.html
$200 million cash. Thirty million bucks a year BASE funding for 5500 people. Sweet deal. Plus the government is on the hook for unlimited bureaucracy costs. Lost mineral rights, welfare, addiction services….all of this easily adds up to a billion bucks in as little as a few years. You are familiar with math, aren’t you babulican?
You should read books by Tom Flanagan and publications from the Fraser Institute for a better understanding of Native land claims and the costs associated with them. Thanks.
John, I have had my mind changed on several issues by good discussion at sites I disagree with, in general terms: Andrew’s (Bound By Gravity) Candace’s (Waking Up On Planet X), the Last Amazon, and a few others. Like any site, things get weird there occasionally, but the folks who run them genuinely care about keeping an intelligent discussion going.
I care where their site goes because there are at least a couple of people who post here who are smart, thoughtful, articulate, and occasionally very funny, and I think they elevate both the site and the general level of discussion in the blogosphere.
I post here when I see a really nasty misrepresentation of history or policy, especially to do with Aboriginal people. But I don’t really come here for discussion any more, because the good folks don’t join in, and the high school debaters, tots and flamers have taken over the asylum.
Fair enough…that’s what the site wants to be, and that’d fine. I’m just sorry to see what could have been a good forum go down.
Whoops - forgot to mention: The Liberal party of Canada has now lost seven consecutive elections in Quebec.
The Conservatives are absolutely dominating Quebec outside Montreal and on the Island Dion is despised.
What does this have to do with land claims? Not much, other than to get the Liberal apologists here really, really angry.
Ok, if that works for you, cool. I guess I just don’t enjoy political debate very much. Take care.
Maitre, I have read pretty much everything Tom Flanagan ever published, including the wonderful treatise in which he asserts that there is no such thing as Aboriginal culture, that the only viable future is assimilation, and that all claims and treaties should be repudiated. There isn’t too much I haven’t read on Aboriginal rights, even Flanagan’s horrific, ill-informed neocon crap.
I suggest you look up the definition of the word “average” before you open your mouth again.
Maitre, you’re not clear on what is and isnt’ included in a Land Claim, are you?
“There isn’t too much I haven’t read on Aboriginal rights, even Flanagan’s horrific, ill-informed neocon crap.”
Hoo boy. The superiority complex apparently knows no bounds.
Flanagan is a university professor. What do you do for a living again, Balb?
Left wing types such as you are often shaky at maths, babulican, so it’s no wonder why you have a hard time multiplying 70 million by 25, then adding 1.4 billion, then adding associated overhead costs.
You really need to read Flanagan’s excellent work on the subject to better educate yourself. I’d suggest “First Nations? Second Thoughts”. You might also find the Fraser Institute helpful, but leftists often find the math complicated.
See also:
Principles for Treaty Making
Gordon Gibson, Senior Fellow, The Fraser Institute
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/.....amp;id=197
Is the Nisga’a Treaty moral?
Gordon Gibson, Senior Fellow, The Fraser Institute
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/.....amp;id=377
Heh. Sorry, kids. I’m a bit too old for the tot-style flaming.
Shame about this site, though.
Whooeee! see you around the stagleft campfire balbull, where all the big kids hang out, whooeee!, careful now dem dar 9/11 fellers don’t git too close to da flames, durn fire melts stuff ya no, Whooeee!
Balbulican writes:
“I post here when I see a really nasty misrepresentation of history or policy, especially to do with Aboriginal people. But I don’t really come here for discussion any more, because the good folks don’t join in …”
Sorry to keep you waiting, but I’m here now honey.
Flanagan makes some very useful points in his scholarship. For myself, having lived right next door to an Indian Reserve all my life, romantic claims of their cultural sophistication, untainted by the world around them, are rather fanciful, to say the least. One girl I went to elementary school came from a family of five siblings, none of whom shared a common father. She had been sexually molested by one of her uncles on the reserve and would eat the chalk off the chalk board, along with the filings from the paper hole punch. Oh yeah, and she liked to suck on highlighters too! The teacher eventually had to hide all of these materials from her. But the real tragedy is that cases like hers were really not that rare.
I’m not saying Indians don’t have some cultural heritage. Obviously, they do. But for all intents and purposes that heritage is gone, irrelevant to the world that they now live in and will continue to embrace, overwhelmingly, into the future.
The point of criticizing their lack of culture is to say that as part of our culture, these people are severely lacking, severely oppressed by the worst elements of our culture. And as part of our culture, they need to be better integrated and made self-sufficient.
That said, their communities are rife with corruption and they continue living the life of perpetual victims; a diffident lot stemming from the bitter root of welfare pathologies. The land claims process drags on and on, for years and years, because the Indian negotiators, fat on the government hog, have no incentive to settle.
When it comes to land claims, we need to get them over and done with and keep the dollar figures within reason. We need to do like New Zealand where none of the lawyers get paid until an agreement is reached. And further, as far as land claims go, Indian reserves need to be better integrated at the equivalent level of municipalities; none of this sovereign nation crap.
I suggest you read some Calvin Helin:
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/.....+Books%3a+‘Calvin+Helin’&sterm=Calvin+Helin+-+Books
And here:
http://www.fcpp.org/main/publi.....PubID=1800
Oh my, George, how substantive.
George, thanks…there was actually content there. Aaron…take note.
To address your points:
“Flanagan makes some very useful points in his “scholarship.”
Really? Well, I’ve read First Nations, Second Thoughts a couple of times, and found it both historically weak, and pretty much poisoned by Flanagan’s neocon bias. As more credible scholars have noted, Flanagan simply ignores or derides the inconvenient (for his argument) complexity of pre-contact history, including trade networks and the sophistication of First Nations’ political systems and relationships. I found the book was roughly 1/3 bad history and 2/3 polemic.
“For myself, having lived right next door to an Indian Reserve all my life, romantic claims of their cultural sophistication, untainted by the world around them, are rather fanciful, to say the least.”
Straw man. I don’t know any Aboriginal people who claim to be untainted by the world around them.
“One girl I went to elementary school came from a family of five siblings, none of whom shared a common father. She had been sexually molested by one of her uncles on the reserve and would eat the chalk off the chalk board, along with the filings from the paper hole punch. Oh yeah, and she liked to suck on highlighters too! The teacher eventually had to hide all of these materials from her. But the real tragedy is that cases like hers were really not that rare.”
Gee. I went to school with a Catholic guy who was buggered for years by a priest. Today he’s an alchoholic mess. Just goes to show, Catholic culture doesn’t work.
“I’m not saying Indians don’t have some cultural heritage. Obviously, they do. But for all intents and purposes that heritage is gone, irrelevant to the world that they now live in and will continue to embrace, overwhelmingly, into the future.”
Sorry, George. You’re wrong. Aboriginal culture is changing, not gone. Jews don’t live in the desert anymore, but they represent a distinct cultural group within the context of global culture. Those elements of a culture that contribute to societal health survive, and those that evolved in response to a specific economic or geographic environment fade, as is the case in any culture.
“The point of criticizing their lack of culture is to say that as part of our culture, these people are severely lacking, severely oppressed by the worst elements of our culture. And as part of our culture, they need to be better integrated and made self-sufficient.”
Heh. And as part of their culture, you would be found sadly lacking. But that really doesn’t matter.
“That said, their communities are rife with corruption…”
You really need to read something a bit more informed than right wing blogs and Flanagan. Maybe actually take a look at the trends in education, income, employment, health, and the other major social indices. It’s getting better, George, not worse. All those stats are available online through the native peoples’ surveys that accompany each census.
And sorry…judging a culture by its basket cases is like judging “capitalism” by looking exclusively at Enron and Conrad Black. Interesting cautionary tales from the edge, but not to be taken as the norm.
” The land claims process drags on and on, for years and years, because the Indian negotiators, fat on the government hog, have no incentive to settle.”
Nope, that’s not what the Auditor General said, or Justice Thomas Berger, or PriceWaterhouse Coopers, all of whom have stated explicitly in the last three years that the fault lies squarely with Canada’s stalling.
“When it comes to land claims, we need to get them over and done with…”
Hear hear.
“… and keep the dollar figures within reason.”
Yup.
“We need to do like New Zealand where none of the lawyers get paid until an agreement is reached.”
See above on the cause of the delays.
“And further, as far as land claims go, Indian reserves need to be better integrated at the equivalent level of municipalities; none of this sovereign nation crap.”
Nope. That’s vintage Flanagan, but that ain’t where it’s going to go. Sorry to keep coming back to this, but you need to read up a bit on the actual, legal nature of Aboriginal title, treaties and claims. Not from a Flanagan or another political hack…pick any of the actual legal authorities who’ve written on this material. In fact, there’s a ton of good background material on the INAC site.
“I suggest you read some Calvin Helin.”
Heh. I know Calvin quite well, thanks. I hope he makes a lot of money from his book.
the biggest lie told in canada is that indians are native.
all indians are the same as Whites. They came from a different continent. 100 percent of all indians are from Asia, including eskimos
this lie is pushed by bourque.com and the asper family, which are both israeli citizens, living in Canada
the biggest lie told in canada is that indians are native.
all indians are the same as Whites. They came from a different continent. 100 percent of all indians are from Asia, including eskimos
this lie is pushed by bourque.com and the asper family, which are both israeli citizens, living in Canada