Sorry, I missed this.

Good illustration of the way that ideologues care less about facts than about a perception…factual or not…that will support their position.

The Kelowna Accord was the culmination of an eighteen month formal planning and consultation process. It was unique in quite a few ways, but its most important facet was this. It’s almost impossible to get First Nations, Inuit, Métis, Federal, Provincial and Territorial governance bodies to sit down in the same room, let alone to work on a long term, comprehensive policy and program initiative. (If you can think of another example, I’d be glad to hear it.) The KA represented a consensus of a kind that had never been seen before (including the buy-in of provinces and territories of very different political stripes.)

Whether the Liberals would actually have implemented it remains, to me, a huge question. But the Accord itself was a painfully won and very solid piece of work.

And you are right, the Aboriginal people of Canada face many issues, a great many of them created, in whole or in part, by the federal government - now we have to address those issues.

I like your example of clean drinking water, why don’t we take Kashechewan as an example of that, everybody knows about Kashechewan. How do you suppose a financially poor reserve will accomplish your suggestion all on its’ own when small municipalities depend on provincial infrastructure money for exactly that sort of thing - except that the province won’t do it, because it’s a federal responsibility, and they haven’t done squat in years, even though they had known there was an issue as early as 2001.

Even now the 2001 Ontario Clean Water Agency report sits on a shelf somewhere, the majority of its’ recommendations un-addressed.

Please Aaron, educate yourself will you?

- and do see if you can tone down the number of insults in your rhetoric. That’s generally what dogmatic people who are starting to get a bit uncomfortable about their knowledge of the topic material at hand resort to, and it’s usually considered boorish.

Part of Matthew’s education, Aaron, would have been a summary of findings over the last five years of a number of reports that say, as clearly as possible, that First Nations aren’t asking for “more”. They’re asking that the claims and treaties be implemented.

If you’re curious, the key documents are:

- an assessment of implementation of Native Claims by Sheila Fraser, Auditor General, in which she rips INAC to shreds for their failure to honour the letter, spirit OR intent of claims and treaties:
- an independent evaluation of the Implementation of the Nunavut Claim, by Justice Thomas Berger, which concludes the same, even more bluntly, and outlines the strategies whereby the Federal Government simply ignores the finding of any regulatory, arbitration or adjudication process;
- an independent evaluation by Pricewaterhouse Coopers, which echoes these findings.

I’m doing you the courtesy of assuming that is a topic you are actually prepared to talk about. Are you ? Or are you just playing?

The problem, of course, is simple. The “leadership” of native “nations” in Canada face numerous problems in their “sovereign” territory. Basic things like, I don’t know, clean drinking water. But instead of hiring engineers and contractors to fix the problem, native “leadership” groups hire lawyers and media consultants. Luckily, stupid people like you are around to breathlessly justify stupid strategies like this.

Nah, it’s not that hard. Once we strip away all the feel-good language, you want more financial concessions from the state. Just like welfare recipients and everyone else. No biggie.

People like you are so smart that you still cling to an agreement negotiated by Paul Martin. In the lead-up to an election campaign(!).

“How do you know that I wasn’t referring to specific Natives before you went off the rails, or (again) that “the Natives” I refer to aren’t the political forces trying to leech off the rest of Canada by breaking more and more laws as time passes by.”

Umm…because that’s not what you said. You said “natives”. Not “some natives”.

If I say “White people are racist”, that’s a comment on white people as a group. That’s how English works. If you did a bad job expressing your thought, then by all means retract and rephrase your statement. An apology to the folks you maligned would be nice too.

“…then you go ahead and once again demonstrate the twisting my words and jumping to conclusions that I want to avoid in the first place.”

“Twisting” your words? Nope. Quoting your words. If you were TRYING to say “Lazy Indians are Lazy”, you didn’t do a very good job.

“Where are you to defend those guys, or is it okay to attack them because their organizations because they don’t also qualify as a race?”

Umm…you really need to calm down before you post. This sentence makes no sense.

And then you launch into another ignorant rant that confirms your utter lack of understanding about the nature of treaties, claims, and the relationship between First Nations and Canada. Let me know when you’d like to learn something, and we can have a pleasant little chat.

(By ignorant, by the way, I mean in the literal sense - you are simply uninformed. Which, as I said, is okay - most Canadians are - but you shouldn’t bitch so publicly about things you don’t understand. It really does make you look stupid.)

While we’re on my post though: note that I also attack the OPP and the provincial AND the federal governments for this mess. Where are you to defend those guys, or is it okay to attack them because their organizations because they don’t also qualify as a race?

Finally, I don’t know what you want me to call it, but when a group gets exclusive tax breaks, leniency when they break the law, special treatment at all public universities and gobs of cash flowing to them (as a whole), AND after all that they complain about their poor treatment, lack of resources and opportunities and everything else under the sun, “spoiled brats of Confederation” sounds pretty accurate.

Aaron: as articulate and thoughtful as ever I see.

Bloody luxury. Now of course, in MY day, we had it hard.

“Mind you name calling and snotty remarks are all that cowards like ball-less-can have.”

And this whine was sort of a classic, no?

“When I was in college in the 80’s I worked a job that started at 10 pm and went to 4am. I lived in an under $200 per month sh&thole and ate macaroni 8 - 10 times a week.”

You lucky, privileged bastard! When I was in college, classes were in a hole in the ground that I had to dig myself, and I did all the teaching too. You had a paying job? I would have killed for a paying job! I had to carry rocks all night just for the right to sleep in a puddle, and when it didn’t rain I went thirsty. You had macaroni? You whinging little momma’s boy! I would have bitten my own head off for just a taste of macaroni! When I was your age I lived on gravel. Yes, gravel! You kids these days get everything handed to you….

Etc.

This discussion began with a post from you mocking and insulting my wife, her family, and a number of my friends. They are Ontario “natives”. They’re not “lazy”. They’re not “spoiled brats of Confederation”. When you choose to begin a discussion with a stupid insult, I’m afraid you forfeit the right to politeness.

Furthermore, your post and subsequent commentary suggested that you know nothing about the actual nature of Aboriginal title, Land Claims or Treaties. Now, that’s okay: most Canadians don’t. But most Canadians don’t choose to brandish their ignorance for the applause of their equally ill-informed peers by publishing their stupidity online.

And no, I don’t wonder why you refuse to debate with me at all. You don’t actually have anything to say on Aboriginal issues beyond the surly, resentful cliches you share with so many of your equally ignorant confreres. It’s been an interesting week on the right side of the blogosphere, between Right Girl and Katie Shaidle’s open, explicit espousal of racist hatred. You’re not that bad, and the offer stands.

Tell you what. You apologize to my wife, her family, and the Aboriginal people in Ontario, and I’ll consider apologizing to you.

And you’d like an apology…for what, exactly? I’ll give you a tip instead. If you don’t want to be called stupid…don’t write stupid stuff.

Just remember though:

Stageleft: You’re the first person between the two of us here to use the term “Injuns”, as in, you’re putting words in my mouth. Typical tactic I find from liberals sadly.

All of you: Tell me how decrying both the *threats* made by Natives and also their *actions* of collective laziness on the day of is so wrong. If anything, it’s the reservists who are being hypocritical. It’s also not racist since these actions (or lack thereof) have nothing to do with a race, but rather a political group which likes to be referred to as such every time it is expedient for them; I could also comment on how unions are tyrannical bullies these days, but would that be racist?

balbulican: Thanks for the offer but frankly all the above observations have made me a little reluctant to get into a debate with you. After all, you just referred to me as 1/3rd of the “Axis of Stupid” (and yes, it makes you look stupid if no one gets your joke), and I’m still waiting for an apology that one would expect from a gentleman opponent. In summary, you guys on the left only play by the rules as long as they fancy you. Good day sir.

If there is no violence and it’s a peaceful day of protest you can pontificate about how them Injuns is “too lazy” to do anything, and if it had been a blow up day you would be crying long and loud about your need to be protected from these violent law breakers.

But keep writing dude, Canada (and indeed the world) needs to know that people like you still exist - it’s hard to defend against racism if it isn’t exposed to as wide an audience as possible.

Wow. I’m more famous that Scott Tribe…AND I have an M.O.! Cool!

My behavious is pretty much site, and in some cases thread, dependent. When a thread opens up with a mindless cliche like this one did, it’s not going anywhere.

My disappointment with The Politic, of late, is that there HAVE been threads that started with thoughtful posts. I’ve had really interesting discussions here with Greg and Tom, both articulate folks. Aaron just likes to argue (which is fine, but not very interesting), and Shane gets insulting as soon as he runs out of actual argument, which is a bore. I suspect from their discursive style that they’re a bit young, which, fortunately, is a self-curing problem.

As for this current thread, I’ve offered to have a real live grownup discussion with Matthew…no games, no insults, just a debated based on our respective interpretation of Canada/Aboriginal relations, and the history of Claims, Treaty and Self Government. So far, no response, which may mean he’s actually got a life (unlike the rest of us, apparently), or he really isn’t interested in this issue at all. But the offer stands.

A few alternatives occurred, but “Axis of Stupid” seemed to me to work best. It needed to be two syllables, with the emphasis on the first syllable, to mirror the familiar cadence being parodied - you know, EE-vul - STOOO-pid. Plus the blunt simplicity of it appealed to me. Hmm. Well, I’ll consider other options, if you care to propose any.

“I’m looking forward to the coming insufferable condescension expressed by way of incomprehensible run-on sentences.”

I’ll really try to keep the sentences simple.

Axis of Stupid? That was clever. I’ll bet that ten more seconds of deep reflection would have produced a better adjective.

Meanwhile, Balbulican and Scott Tribe have teamed up. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m looking forward to the coming insufferable condescension expressed by way of incomprehensible run-on sentences.

That occurred despite the OPP’s best efforts to condone and therefore encourage any law-breaking beforehand. Could Fantino have been any more pathetic? When he said that he was taking Brant “on his word” that he would turn himself in at midnight, all I could see was a cowering, pitiful state.

“You’re under arrest.”
“Yeah, sorry, can’t make it. I’ll try to drop by about midnight.”
“OK, but I trust you when you say that you’ll show up.”

Pathetic. If the police are going to exempt natives from the law prior to any law-breaking, then what should we expect from natives?

The update, if you’re curious, was a quote from Canada’s own poster girl for hatred, Right Girl, who said of the folks she calls “Injuns”:

“It’s their chance to whine and complain that us white guys who pay 45% in income tax to support their smoking, drinking and daughter-fucking are ripping them off…”

Nice. No racist generalizations there.

Scott Tribe is now writing comments here? Darn. I didn’t know that he was in the business of exporting bad writing.

Oh, absolutely. Uh huh. Yup. For sure.

Mind you, I’ve seen the “adult” discussions that occur over in the echo chambers of the “progressive” bloggers’ sites and if that’s what it takes to be an adult to you guys, you guys can keep your sophisticated discourse to yourselves.

I’ll digress though and continue to watch your comments speak for themselves here; don’t want to feed any trolls after all!

” I don’t raise it here because the discussion of late has sunk to a pretty primitive level”

Of course, you are far too intellectual and cultured to continue. (eye roll) Or perhaps you are simply and elitist pansy ass who has nothing else.” Buh bye.

a) Don’t use EXACTLY the same racist phrasing in each note. Try to vary it a little. Instead of saying “fat, drunken asses” repeatedly in both posts, use “big Injun butts”, or something. See what I mean? It’s less obvious.

b) Try to vary the theme a bit. You not only used the same language, but you repeated the same “poor suffering me, goddamn spoiled them” narrative line in both posts. Maybe you should try a few other cliches, like the popular “They all oughta just assimilate anyway” line…that’s always a good one.

Just trying to be helpful here…I don’t think you read very much, so you may not know how hard it is to actually sound like a different person.

But I do reserve the right to pluck some of your amusing rnats and errors for the amusement of our readers. Surely you wouldn’t deny us that?

Carry on, and know that we’re watching, and grinning.

I don’t raise it here because the discussion of late has sunk to a pretty primitive level - as you’ve so aptly demonstrated. And I’m really not very interested in inviting you to pollute any of the threads where grownups are talking. Sorry.